Put to death

[Swallace]

Read this and tell me why this man deserved to live?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,426721,00.html

[neville]

Because the job of the government is to protect life, not end it.

[RobbieNelson]

Neville, let me guess, you have no kids. Am I right?

D.A. Rufus Buckley: Do you think they should deserve to die?
Carl Lee Hailey: Yes, they deserved to die and I hope they burn in hell!

[neville]

Neville, let me guess, you have no kids. Am I right?
Got no kids, and if someone killed them, would I want them to die? Sure.

I wouldn't want to government to do it, I'd rather do it myself.

[CharlesHedrick]

So its more justified for you to kill in your manner then the government "humanely" killing?

[neville]

So its more justified for you to kill in your manner then the government "humanely" killing?
I never said that either was justified.

[jimmy]

neville who hurt your kids, i swear to god i will rip there arms off and beat them to death with them

[neville]

See, I got Jimmy to kill people for me, I don't need the government

[Nahum Cook]

I wouldn't want to government to do it, I'd rather do it myself.

Well lets see thats 1st degree murder.

See, I got Jimmy to kill people for me, I don't need the government

Pretty sure that this would also be conspiracy to commit murder in the 1st degree as well.

So in the end its a lose lose situation for you Neville ;).

[neville]

Well lets see thats 1st degree murder.



Pretty sure that this would also be conspiracy to commit murder in the 1st degree as well.

So in the end its a lose lose situation for you Neville ;).
Its not necessarily 1st degree murder

[Nate]

Government is supposed to protect life AND property. I consider my money my property. When I'm taxed and that money is used to support someone else (especially someone like this), my property is not being protected. It's being extorted.

That said... do people really want to know details about the guys last supper?

[neville]

Government is supposed to protect life AND property. I consider my money my property. When I'm taxed and that money is used to support someone else (especially someone like this), my property is not being protected. It's being extorted.

That said... do people really want to know details about the guys last supper?
As I've said before, and I'll say it again, it costs MORE to prosecute and execute than to prosecute and keep alive in jail.


If you don't want to pay taxes, you don't have to:wink:

[CharlesHedrick]

As I've said before, and I'll say it again, it costs MORE to prosecute and execute than to prosecute and keep alive in jail.


If you don't want to pay taxes, you don't have to:wink:

Proof needed...I highly doubt a couple drugs is more expensive then food electricity etc for 50-60 years(assuming a young convict, but at least 20-30 avg)

Grant Prisoners make decent slave labor, i personally dont want to feed a good percentage of them period...

[neville]

Proof needed...I highly doubt a couple drugs is more expensive then food electricity etc for 50-60 years(assuming a young convict, but at least 20-30 avg)

Grant Prisoners make decent slave labor, i personally dont want to feed a good percentage of them period...

You missed part of what I said

It costs more to PROSECUTE and execute than to PROSECUTE and keep in prison.


Here are my sources

Total cost of Indiana's death penalty is 38% greater than the total cost of life without parole sentences

http://www.in.gov/cji/special-initiatives/law_book.pdf


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty#financialfacts

[CharlesHedrick]

You missed part of what I said

It costs more to PROSECUTE and execute than to PROSECUTE and keep in prison.


Here are my sources

Total cost of Indiana's death penalty is 38% greater than the total cost of life without parole sentences

http://www.in.gov/cji/special-initiatives/law_book.pdf


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty#financialfacts

" Total cost of Indiana's death penalty is 38% greater than the total cost of life without parole sentences
A study by Indiana's Criminal Law Study Commission found this to be true, assuming that 20% of death sentences are overturned and resentenced to life." assuming....because thats accurate....
First link results in 404 code, may wanna try again

From a short reading this agress is costs more to "The investigation costs for death-sentence cases were about 3 times greater than for non-death cases." and "Death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment. "

Now, my turn to throw some statistics...:biggrin:

Granted the costs of appeals and trials so on is more for DP(death penalty) versus LWOP(life without parole).

However to say "It costs more to PROSECUTE and execute than to PROSECUTE and keep in prison." Would be False:

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html#D.Cost

Paraphrased to save time from using a table:
Cost of LWOP:cases equivalent to DP cases
$34,200/year (1) for 50 years (2), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$75,000 (4) for trial & appeals = $3.01 million
Cost of DP:cases equivalent to LWOP cases
$60,000/year (1) for 6 years (5), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$1.5 million (4) for trial & appeals = $1.88 million

Now this is based of the author's calculations, so heres some "real" data to back it up.

Source:U.S. Vital Statistics Abstract, 1994 and Capital Punishment 1995, BJS 1996.
LWOP:Same, except 3% (3)= $4.04 million
DP:Same, except 3% (3)= $1.89 million


Now these statistics take into account: jail time, courts/appeals etc, INCREASE security costs for death penalty, plus cost of Death.

Factors not taken into effect that would increase LWOP costs:
Medical, including the hepatitis and Aids spreading throughout jail systems, Inflation(old statistic), Geriatric costs(kind of medical, but more prevelant)

Factors not taken into effect that would increase DP costs:
"the cost savings to jurisdictions based on plea bargains to maximum life sentences, which can only occur due solely to the presence of the death penalty. Such should accrue as a cost benefit of the death penalty"

So even a low cost of prosecution is removed by the EXTREME cost of keeping these SOB's alive...

I would highly recommend reading the majority of that site before retailiating...

[neville]

" Total cost of Indiana's death penalty is 38% greater than the total cost of life without parole sentences
A study by Indiana's Criminal Law Study Commission found this to be true, assuming that 20% of death sentences are overturned and resentenced to life." assuming....because thats accurate....
First link results in 404 code, may wanna try again

From a short reading this agress is costs more to "The investigation costs for death-sentence cases were about 3 times greater than for non-death cases." and "Death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment. "

Now, my turn to throw some statistics...:biggrin:

Granted the costs of appeals and trials so on is more for DP(death penalty) versus LWOP(life without parole).

However to say "It costs more to PROSECUTE and execute than to PROSECUTE and keep in prison." Would be False:

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html#D.Cost

Paraphrased to save time from using a table:
Cost of LWOP:cases equivalent to DP cases
$34,200/year (1) for 50 years (2), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$75,000 (4) for trial & appeals = $3.01 million
Cost of DP:cases equivalent to LWOP cases
$60,000/year (1) for 6 years (5), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$1.5 million (4) for trial & appeals = $1.88 million

Now this is based of the author's calculations, so heres some "real" data to back it up.

Source:U.S. Vital Statistics Abstract, 1994 and Capital Punishment 1995, BJS 1996.
LWOP:Same, except 3% (3)= $4.04 million
DP:Same, except 3% (3)= $1.89 million


Now these statistics take into account: jail time, courts/appeals etc, INCREASE security costs for death penalty, plus cost of Death.

Factors not taken into effect that would increase LWOP costs:
Medical, including the hepatitis and Aids spreading throughout jail systems, Inflation(old statistic), Geriatric costs(kind of medical, but more prevelant)

Factors not taken into effect that would increase DP costs:
"the cost savings to jurisdictions based on plea bargains to maximum life sentences, which can only occur due solely to the presence of the death penalty. Such should accrue as a cost benefit of the death penalty"

So even a low cost of prosecution is removed by the EXTREME cost of keeping these SOB's alive...

I would highly recommend reading the majority of that site before retailiating...
6 years on death row?
Thats bogus, most spend upwards of 10-15 nowadays

Also, they make a "Conservative" estimate for LWOP, and a "Very Conservative" estimate for DP, their words, not mine.

I think www.prodeathpenalty.com might have a little bias

[CharlesHedrick]

Even adjusted to lets say a very high 20 years, its still a savings of 1 mill plus

[Nahum Cook]

Its not necessarily 1st degree murder

Yeah it is lol. The fact that you would say "I'd rather do it myself" given the pre-empting conditions would make it pre-meditated.

However I guess depending on how good your lawyer is or how understanding the DA would be I guess you could get manslaughter.........under the basis that the retaliation killing of the person who killed your children was from emotional duress.

[neville]

Even adjusted to lets say a very high 20 years, its still a savings of 1 mill plus

$60,000 * 20 years + $1.5 million = $2.7 million

I think that whole increase thing is very misleading, I think they threw it in there to make sure that the LWOP stays high

I also think its interesting that they even say that Maximum Security costs $75,000 a year, but only made those on Death Row $60,000 a year.


I'd like see some other stats and cost analyis on this, mainly not from a obvious pro-death penalty website, and mainly ones that aren't older than Swing.

[neville]

Yeah it is lol. The fact that you would say "I'd rather do it myself" given the pre-empting conditions would make it pre-meditated.

However I guess depending on how good your lawyer is or how understanding the DA would be I guess you could get manslaughter.........under the basis that the retaliation killing of the person who killed your children was from emotional duress.
Pre-meditated murder isn't first degree murder in all states

[Nahum Cook]

True that each state defines what 1st degree murder is but for all praticality it is generally pre-meditated.

[CharlesHedrick]

Have you taken any math classes??? or Reading???

The increase accounts for many things...and everything has been getting more andm ore expensive. and yes 2.7 million is still less then the LWOP and no one is on death row.

Oh and not EVERYONE is in a maximum security prison...I would consider 60 a good estimate


Number dont lie


If you need more statistics i suggest you research them then, because curently the US government agrees with me...

[neville]

Have you taken any math classes??? or Reading???

The increase accounts for many things...and everything has been getting more andm ore expensive. and yes 2.7 million is still less then the LWOP and no one is on death row.

Oh and not EVERYONE is in a maximum security prison...I would consider 60 a good estimate


Number dont lie


If you need more statistics i suggest you research them then, because currently the US government agrees with me...

Number don't lie, but numbers from 1995 misrepresent, as do arguments from blatant pro-death penalty websites, which will pick and choose their numbers to fall in line with what they want.

[CharlesHedrick]

I'm still waiting on your research to disprove mine....

[neville]

I'm still waiting on your research to disprove mine....
I already did

[CharlesHedrick]

I already did

Disagreeing does not disprove anything....like i said research is still being waited on from your "side"..gotta catch the little words in the sentences, like proof:
a: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b: the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
: something that induces certainty or establishes validity

just some examples from Merriam-Webster

[neville]

Disagreeing does not disprove anything....like i said research is still being waited on from your "side"..gotta catch the little words in the sentences, like proof:
a: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b: the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
: something that induces certainty or establishes validity

just some examples from Merriam-Webster

You missed part of what I said

It costs more to PROSECUTE and execute than to PROSECUTE and keep in prison.


Here are my sources

Total cost of Indiana's death penalty is 38% greater than the total cost of life without parole sentences

http://www.in.gov/cji/special-initiatives/law_book.pdf


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty#financialfacts
Maybe you should pay more attention

[Nate]

If appeals truly cost more than paying to keep a criminal alive, something's wrong with the legal system. I've yet to see unbiased numbers for EITHER side.

Did you know that if someone is on death row...if they have a heart attack, then they can get a bypass? Of course their health insurance premiums don't go up, because they don't pay any. Even better, they don't have to pay a deductible!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=90611&page=3

I find this hard to stomach. There are people that can't afford to buy healthcare because of taxes...and their money is going to afford lifesaving procedures for people that they have to pay to kill later?

"I don't think people should be penalized because they happen to be on death row. People in prison have the right to the same health care that is applied on the outside."
-People shouldn't be penalized on death row? Since when was healthcare a "right"?

[CharlesHedrick]

Maybe you should pay more attention

Wow...i must say, i didnt think this level of ignorance is possible....

First link is a 404...page does not exist, so NO PROOOF....that was easy

Second link... provides NO data, or any sources, just say prosecution is more expensive, not prosecution plus implementation

My link, which includes the authors, mine, the US government and YOUR calculations all prove Death Row is cheaper including prosecution

I consider this arguement finished, and anything out of your mouth a load of :bs:

It almost makes me said to waste the bandwidth for this thread...

[neville]

Wow...i must say, i didnt think this level of ignorance is possible....

First link is a 404...page does not exist, so NO PROOOF....that was easy

Second link... provides NO data, or any sources, just say prosecution is more expensive, not prosecution plus implementation

My link, which includes the authors, mine, the US government and YOUR calculations all prove Death Row is cheaper including prosecution

I consider this arguement finished, and anything out of your mouth a load of :bs:

It almost makes me said to waste the bandwidth for this thread...
It didn't provide data, but it gave links to data.